page count

edited August 2011 in Do The Work
so I'm working on my project with @jamiecottle called Godstown and I had to add a page to the script for storytelling purposes, which brings the total page count to 25 pages. an odd number that cannot be divided by 8. How much in effect is the divisible-by-eight rule? Is it possible to have, say 26 pages in a floppy, or is that looked down upon by printers, etc? I really don't want to add 7 pages to make it to 32. Thoughts anyone?
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Comments

  • edited August 2011
    You need multiples of four, not eight. Add pages of bios, or an essay or character sketches to get you to the right total. Or, figure out somewhere else you can trim and get it back to 24.
  • edited August 2011
    Of the printers I've worked with... okay it's only been one... but it was Quebecor/Lebonfon who does/did most Image and indies... at the time only did multiples of eight.

    You can cheat and do a 28 page book by printing the cover on the same stock as the interiors, which I believe they refer to as a self-cover. Basically it's a coverless 32 page comic, but if it's all in colour and on glossy stock, no one notices the difference. I think that is pretty common practice these days as it saves you four pages of content and saves the cost of doing a separate run for the cover.

    If you are doing print on demand, then yes, you can do multiples of four, but I believe off-set still requires 8.
  • I've self-published two comics, and they wanted a 4-count. Now, both were 16 pages and qualified for an 8-count, but they only insisted on 4.
  • The Red Wing #1 was 23 story pages, so it could end on a two-page spread. They just filled out the rest of the issue to the required number of printed-on-pages. Which is basically what @RussellLissau said.
  • edited August 2011
    Well, I wrote a long post and then accidentally deleted it. :/

    @RussellLissau Did you use a short run/print on demand printer or an off-set printer?

    While the quality can be indistinguishable, the technical requirements are different. And you aren't going to print 2000 + floppies/books on a print-on-demand machine (nor would you print 300 copies on an off-set printer). The cost and labour would be too prohibitive. Print on demand is kind of like printing out on a really fancy and expensive laser copier (not a good analogy, I know). I'm sure it's all automated, but it's one page at a time (folded in half for 4 pages) and a lot more time consuming than off-set. Off-set on the other hand , the biggest cost is the set-up and turning on the press. It's all about volume.

    When I started out self-publishing in '98 I got quotes from all the (what was then called short run: 1000 - 20,000) off-set printers and all of the quotes were in multiples of 8: 16, 24, 32, 40, 48, etc.

    Since then I've only used Lebonfon, and the runs have been from 2000-5000 with the aberration of the FCBD book at 16,000, and again their requirements are for 8 page signatures.

    The one variation was when I asked for a quote on a 32 page full-colour floppie and was given the option of a 28 page self-covered book (4 page cover printed on the same stock for a 32 page including cover book). I imagine you could do any 8 page multiple of self-covered book, but the total pages including the cover would still be a multiple of 8.

    I really don't know why the off-set printers require 8, but it's been that way as long as I've been in comics, and that goes back a long, long, way and at every publisher I've been with.
    @anthonyperruzo Before we confuse the issue further, the big question is where will this book end up?
  • it's all hypothetical at this point. don't have a publisher. But it is really interesting to hear this info. I just want to have a plan, since I'll be making this comic regardless of if it gets picked up.
  • I used a local printer (Minuteman Press in Wheeling, IL). One run was offset, the other POD. I don't know why he differentiated.
  • @anthonyperuzzo

    Well, like Russell said, just fill up the required number of pages with back-matter and you're good to go. And if you don't have enough back-matter, the publisher will happily fill those pages with house adds, or you can offer up the extra pages to friends for advertising.

    Self-publishing, or being published at Image, it's ultimately your decision of the final page count (the extra cost comes out of your profit, not Image's), so final page count isn't really an issue as you can find someone somewhere who will take the extra pages. And at Image (at least it was when I was there) the deal also included a set number of pages they got for running house ads. Or, you could give them the back cover and keep the interiors to yourself. Something like that, anyway... it may have changed and/or vary by the deal struck.

    At more traditional publishers, there is a cost factor into over-running a story. Marvel (for example) is not likely to boost the page count of a regular book from 32 to 40 because a writer forgot how to count and turned in 23 pages instead of 22. Nor are they going to drop an advertising page. That would cost them money in both counts. (Not that I have any knowledge of their practice on page count other than an educated guess!)

    Okay, time to get back to work! :)
  • @RussellLissau

    How big was the off-set print run? I had thought you were printing up 200-300 at a time? I didn't think an off-set printer would do a job that small for a reasonable rate.

  • What I've been told is it's totally to do with the equipment and the size of the paper fed into it. The wider the paper the bigger the page-multiple. With smaller printers and especially POD, you're good with a 4-count. It's been a couple of years since I've checked, but Transcontinental required an 8-count for offset and would give you a discount if it was a multiple of 16.
  • @Craig_A_Taillefer: 200 copies. It was their choice, not mine. Honestly, I'm not sure what offfset printing is.
  • @GregCarter

    That would make sense. The higher the multiple, the fewer passes through the press, which would cut the cost.

    Lebaonfon, before being bought out by the employees, was Quebecors "short run" division. They did the 20K or less jobs that were too small for the main division that was doing the Marvel and DC books in the 20-300K runs.

    I don't think they would even do IK, only starting at 2K.

    Perhaps the 8 multiple is optimal for the 2K-20K runs. I wonder if the press that did/does the Marvel books runs on 16's. Does anyone know? I suppose if Marvel ever does/did 40 pagers that would answer the question. 48 pages and 64 always seemed to be the default bigger size if I'm not mistaken.

    I imagine an off-set press that uses a 4 multiple wouldn't be able to compete with one that does 8 multiple for larger sizes as it would double the passes through the press, but it might be able to do shorter runs (2K and under) for a competitive price.







  • @Craig_A_Taillefer: From experience, I can confirm that Lebonfon will do 1k runs. They also only do 8 page multiples (as does Transcontinental), something I learned the hard way last month. You could always opt for a self-cover option if you have a 4 page multiple, however I believe that the costs for that are higher than just adding another 4 pages.
  • @RussellLissau

    I think - and think is the optimal word - that off-set is a process where the plate strikes something other than the paper, then it hits the paper (or what it hit then hits the paper). I believe it was developed to reduce the amount of ink directly hitting porous paper like newsprint, thus reducing the blobs and bleed. I think. Someone like Richard Pace might come along and inform us all how wrong I am. :)

    But, I believe any of those big machines you see in movies rolling the newspapers off them is an off-set printer.

    The big difference between POD and Offset is that Offset uses a printing plate. POD prints without a plate.

    It's all about volume, really. And as @GregCarter pointed out, there are presses that use a 16 multiple which would allow larger volume at a lower cost.

    All interesting stuff, but the original question by @anthonyperuzzo is probably more answered by what the multiple is at publishers like Image or IDW. I'm pretty sure Image still uses Lebonfon primarily for their floppies. But, again, I'm a little out of date with my info. :)
  • @edbrisson

    The last quote I had from the was from 2007, and reality has set in since then, but it had been a while since I had asked for anything but a 2k quote. It's possible that I just thought 1K was too high a per-unit price so I stopped asking and forgot they offered it, or the stars-in-my eyes wouldn't consider a lowly 1k order being sufficient!

    I'd have to pull the quote as it's been a while, but I could have sworn the self cover option was a cheaper option than a 32 pager with cover, being as it's one less pass through the press.

    Though, adding 4 pages to a 24 pager with cover to make a 32 page self cover would be more expensive I would imagine.
  • I'll chime in that everything I've done at Image (and now at DC) has required 8-page signatures rather than 4,
  • While driving to pick up my wife from work it occurred to me that I should have gone to wikepedia before writing my moronic description.

    OFF SET PRINTING: "Offset printing is a commonly used printing technique in which the inked image is transferred (or "offset") from a plate to a rubber blanket, then to the printing surface. When used in combination with the lithographic process, which is based on the repulsion of oil and water, the offset technique employs a flat (planographic) image carrier on which the image to be printed obtains ink from ink rollers, while the non-printing area attracts a water-based film (called "fountain solution"), keeping the non-printing areas ink-free.
    Development of the offset press came in two versions: in 1875 by Robert Barclay of England for printing on tin, and in 1903 by Ira Washington Rubel of the United States for printing on paper."

    I was sort of right... :)
  • Multiples of 4 are required by physics. Multiples of 8 are required by the use of standard printing presses... except that sometimes they'll be willing to throw out the blank 4-page remainder without charging full price for it. :)
  • OCD/pet peeve alert:
    POD is not a type of printing - it is a type of availability.
    I know it's in popular use as a synonym for digital press printing, as opposed to offset, but it really has nothing to do with the method.
    Feel free to ignore me. I just felt the need to whine. (It's been that kind of day/week/month.) :p
  • The Image standard is 32 pages and they don't have any problem with you filling the whole thing. Or at least, they didn't with me.
  • @JustinJordan

    They no longer have an ad allotment? Did you fill the back cover yourself as well?

    Just curious, really.
  • @Craig_A_Taillefer

    As far as I know, they would like you to run ads (and the ad space is reciprocal with the books promoted) but it's not required. We are, for instance, doing our own back covers, and the final issue of our books goes 27 story pages and a back cover.

    We are running ads, though, because I want to support some other books.
  • @JustinJordan

    Is the Checklist and "I" word spread not mandatory then?

    Somewhat surprised by that.... but... I believe you. ;)

    Oh... and congratulations by the way. I saw some talk about an upcoming book a while back, but until I saw the Previews cover last week I hadn't realized you'd been picked up by Image.


    Way, way, waaaaaay back, the boilerplate contract (at least for the B&W books) was either 4 interior pages for ads, or the back cover. But maybe that was in payment for the cheaper B&W fee. Either way it still seemed like a good deal to me.
  • Man I'm glad i asked this question. This has been a really informative thread. Thanks everyone!
  • Now I know why my ears were burning about a week back.

    ~R
  • the thing is, if you have 25 pages of art, you'll end your last page on a right hand page and you don't want to do that. Your final page, your "cliffhanger page" should only be seen by turning the page physically: on the left hand page. Because no matter how you try to not look at page 25 when you're reading page 24, you WILL see some of it, and thus ruin your cliffhanger (even if it's not a real cliffhanger) Either trim the story back to 24 pages or add another page so you have 26 pages.
  • Although you're correct theoretically, the right hand page finale is not uncommon.
  • in short stories perhaps, but I've rarely seen it in whole comics
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